No doubt this has been discussed before, but I feel that it is necessary to mention something that I have noticed. It has to do with straight men or women engaging in things that society considers gay. A good example of that is when a couple (man & woman) use a strap on and the guy is the one who is taking it up the rear. Now to me that would be a power trip for the woman as the roles are reversed and in the end it is the guy who is having something done to him. As I stated in my thread on strap on dildo's just very recently, my friend who has reservations about what is gay what is not, is a good example of what I am talking about. The funny thing is the gay and lesbian community go through this kind of discrimination regularly.


As I mentioned above about my friend, I asked him this simple question, "if you were blindfolded and a guy and a girl both were in the room and you got head by both would you know the difference?" To which he replied "yeah I would because of the stubble on the guys chin." Now I find that a farce because as anyone knows when a person is sucking dick, the external part of their face doesn't actually touch anything. It's the mouth and tongue that is doing all the pleasure.

To me what makes a person gay or lesbian comes down to some very simple things and they are: liking the same sex and doing something about those feelings. All this comes down to is one thing.........choice. We as a society should not be condemned for the choices that we make. If a person has feelings towards the same sex and they can't help it so what? What business is it of society to tell this person what is acceptable? What about those who bat for both teams? Is society's stigma so bad that people have forgotten what it means to have tolerance of other's?

There are those who are so repressed that they go and "bash gays" because they think it's not natural. Whatever their reasons, they are not justified as the person who is getting bashed up wouldn't go any where near the person who is beating them up. I have known geeks when I was at school that were called "gay" and beaten up for no reason. Now of course they weren't gay but it's not the point. It's the whole notion of being labelled as such and having people react and prey on that person because they are too weak to stand up to bullies. Once out of high school, the bully is society. The most interesting part about this is, the gay and lesbian community are tolerant of straights and leave them alone, they don't go around 'straight bashing" because society wouldn't condone this kind of behaviour.

I am straight and have known over the years gay and lesbian people, I have no problem with them and have worked with these people as well. Perception is everything, but judging a person on what they are as apposed to their qualities and what they can do is where the problem lies. I have known a gay guy go for a job at a pub, he had experience and was qualified with his cert 1 and 2 of hospitality. He was also doing his cert 3 and 4. He appled for this position against a straight guy who had no experience and no qualifiactions. Take a guess who got the job? The straight guy, why you might ask? (One would think from an employeer's point of view, you would want the most experienced and qualified person to fill the role.) Simple because he is not gay.

__________________
My stories
An erotic story
The instructor and student
Secretary learns how to take a dicktation
The story of sister stephanie

good notion.. My girlfriends sister is a lesbian.. and her sister was surprised by the fact that i knew.. and didn't treat her any different.. and i asked why would I? its not hurting me is it.. its her life.. and her wanting to be with girls isnt hurting me in any way.. so why would I care?

To be fair, I really think that homophobia is a pretty outdated notion. Sexuality makes no difference whatsoever to me and I personally know far more gay and lesbian people than I do homophobes....actually I don't know any homophobes and if I did, I'd soon 'bash' that out of them!

Funnily enough, I have been 'straight bashed' by a lesbian in a gay club once (not physically, but verbally) which is ironic as I was eyeing her up!

What I'm trying to say is, in the UK at least, we're pretty tolerant of sexuality these days to the point where we've moved beyond political correctness. I'll give you an example:

I was out (out - hahaha get it?) with a couple of gay guys a few weeks back and they were laughing about how they hate when gay men talk about 'their partner' rather than their 'boyfriend' and how any guy who says 'partner' immediately sounds gay even if he isn't. Bearing in mind, I'd never met these two guys before, I felt it was perfectly fine to joke: 'These bloody queers, they're so politically correct', to which, without missing a beat, one of them replied 'Er, do you mind, we prefer the term 'pouf' actually' and we all fell about laughing. A few years ago we most people (including me) wouldn't have dared make a joking comment like that, just in case it was misconstrued, but in the UK these days, most gay people don't expect to be treated badly so they've got more of a sense of humour and less of a chip on their shoulder than a straight person might expect.

Perhaps it's just the UK who feel like this, but when I see shows like 'Will and Grace' I think, 'Nah....this is a global thing'

__________________
"Time flies like an arrow -
Fruit flies like a banana"

M Y - N A U G H T Y - P I C T U R E S ! !

I agree in the main with you Lou, but I still find a number of people who feel... uncomfortable around gay men and women, and sometimes the jokes aren't so funny. I've never gotten what exactly the percieved problem is with "the gays", so I've always been very aware when people display prejudice regarding orientation. I'll try and mention a few specific things I remember.

One is the way that if a man or woman is gay, some people see it as a loss, or a weakness on their part. Someone (a straight female) saying that some female celeb being gay is such a loss. Guys implying that some footballer being gay is a weakness. I hear a lot of "Really? He's gay? Well, he must be a giver..." as if to say that "taking it" would be a complete loss of masculinity.

I've also found females to be less accepting of lesbians than they are of gay men. I've one friend who was weird with me for aaaages after I told her I was bi. She only became normal again with me when she basically forgot about it, and since then she still gets awkward when it comes up.

A friend who is gay recently went off to uni but came back because he was so desperately unhappy because the guys he was living with in the dorms. They were just so horrible to him - I must admit, perhaps they just didn't like the cut of his jibb, but from what he told me it was mostly to do with their discomfort about being around a gay man.


And these are examples, not isolated events. I do agree though that there is a lot more light-hearted attitude, and less chance of actual physical beatings due to orientation. However, there is still an underlying prejudice that should be ignored, but not forgotten.


And by that I don't mean remember your prejudices...

I personally support the gays and hope they all find a lot of partners. That should leave a few more ladies looking for a friend.

Now the lesbians are another story. If she is a 'sharing' person .... I LOVE the lady, but I don't donate to the competition.

__________________

Lou

The "Will and Grace" thing is not a view of total America (or Australia).

In the States I saw places where orientation did not seem to matter, yet others where any form of difference seemed confronting.

Tolerance is a fickle thing.

__________________
Calm, quiet, smooth, devastating

...is alive and well in the USA.
I am trying so very hard to be calm here.
This is difficult to write, so please ignore the poor style and spelling.
I don't do well when my hands are shaking.
How can the "enlightened" people I have come to know at Pixies think such things.

If we (I am including gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered here) are so accepted why is "same sex marriage" such a huge political issue here? Why can someone refuse to rent to me and my female partner? Why are there so few women's bars nearby? (they keep having to fix the damage from the vandalism, it gets expensive)
Read internet postings. It seems the worst critique can be to label something "gay" "That is so gay" i.e bad.
Or to call someone a "fag" or "butch" or "dyke"

Explain to me why groups carry signs that say "God hates Dykes" and "God hates fags"?

Some of you may say maybe because I live in the South it is worse, but Matthew Shepard lived in Laramie, Wyoming. Teena Brandon lived in Nebrasksa. I think it is everywhere.
Imagine you can't hold hands or kiss another woman in public without causing a commotion, stares, maybe verbal or even physical abuse.

And then there's the Hate.
Demonstrations, beatings, and protests that include some of the most disgusting, vile, venom you might imagine.

Murders.
Teena Brandon, Juana Vega, Sakia Gunn, all well known in the lesbian community, all murdered because they were not "normal women".

There is a "church group" the westboro church that has been staging protests at miltary funerals, because they say God punishes American soldiers because America "lets" gays exist.

The next part is a quote from an article about this "church"

"The Westboro church says the First Amendment gives them the right to condemn gays and to interpret combat deaths as simply God's wrath against U.S. homosexuals.

“It is not okay to be gay,” said Shirley Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro church. “Those guys over there in Iraq, this nation has angered the lord their god and the wrath of god is poring out on them. God is dealing with this nation, and you can't do one thing to stop it or stop him from blowing those young people to pieces.”

It seems worse for the men. At least we are not AS frequently assaulted by strangers. I hear about "so and so got beat up" time and again.

But we (lesbian, bi women) are not safe.

One source states that sexual orientation, i.e anti lesbian and gay, hate crimes are the THIRD most common hate crime reported in the USA. (Only race and religion bias crimes are more common)
And the crimes increase in number. The Congress tried to pass a federal hate crimes law that included sexual orientation. Bush promised to veto it. It seems all we want is "special status"

All of you who believe there is little or no anti lesbian bias, respond here with a post and let me know how often you have walked in fear of attack because of who you sleep with.

One last statistic.

Almost 1/8 of all sexual orientation hate crimes are anti lesbian/anti female bisexual.

I am going to go sit and drink, and contemplate my "special class"

Linda

__________________
"I wondered, am I a lesbian, am I straight, or bisexual? Then I realized that I am just a slut.
So where's MY parade?"

---Margaret Cho

(((((((WW)))))))

I'm sorry this has upset you so much...and I'm even sorrier that there are such a***holes in the world who take this view. I can honestly say though, that I know of no such extreme cases in the UK - perhaps we really are more tolerant as a nation.

I don't mean to turn this thread political but I'm sure the US' laws and culture have become more conservative in recent years (i.e. since the country came under the control of an evangelical Christian who seems to have completely missed the point of Christian tolerance but thinks it's fine for school kids to be able to get hold of firearms relatively easily. Seems like a bad combination, to me.)

__________________
"Time flies like an arrow -
Fruit flies like a banana"

M Y - N A U G H T Y - P I C T U R E S ! !

Suddenly I feel very lucky to live where I do.

(((((WW))))))
I am so sorry that you have had this happen. There are some people that are tolerant out there and glad i do consider myself one.

Take care WW

__________________
Frankly my dear i don't give a damn *Rhett Butler to Scarlett O'hara."


"Tomorrow is another day" Scarlette O'hara monologue..

socrates last words.. " i drank what?!"

Thank you all for these kind words.
There is so much hate out there right now... Funny thing...
I sometimes think that being bi is worse than just declaring myself lesbian and forgetting about men entirely. As a bi woman, I get both the idiot homophobes and my own sisters spewing vitriol at me. Then there are the males who think because I am bi I am always ready for a 3way or whatever.
(Ok, I pretty much am, but do you have to be so crude, moronic and simply RUDE about it?)
But I can't and won't be anything other than who I am.

Addressing the other issue.

Anti lesbian and gay bias is everywhere, sometimes just hard to see.
The following is from a British web site;
"High-profile homophobic bullying initiatives are failing to make a significant impact in preventing homophobic bullying according to the Queer Youth Network (a national organisation by by and for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered young people). It argues the very nature of schools themselves need to be looked at in order to eradicate all forms of bullying. Tackling homophobic bullying alone is creating a distraction from dealing with a much larger problem. In the organisation's national survey of young people from schools who had an anti-homophobic bullying policy 79% believed it had failed to make any difference to the level of homophobic bullying in their school, and 84% believed it was getting worse."
Check the news Loulabelle. While I have little doubt that the UK is much much more tolerant than the USA, there have been "gay" bashing crimes in the UK, (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/law/2005-4408.html) as well as job discrimination. (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/law/2005-4394.html) Also there's www.galop.org.uk for more information.

Just search local news in what ever part of the world you live in, Oz, the UK, Canada, wherever you are, and you will finds little snippets of news about hate crimes, like an article on how a woman was assaulted and raped. Read to the end, and often there is a clue, such as a mention that she was "leaving a well known gay bar" when she was attacked. (Of course the same applies to gay men, but I have a bias.)
The denials of hate crimes infuriate me. Hate crime legislation is described as "thought crime laws" by conservatives.
Since explore the thoughts and motives of a murderer to see if it was
an unplanned crime of rage or a planned, calculated detruction of another's life, how is looking at the motives of a gang of men who beat and rob a woman with short hair any different?
Some argue that the Hate Crime Laws give more value to some than to others. It does the opposite, it prevents the devaluing of another person's life.
One well known religious- right wing group claims all crimes are crimes of hate, so adding a sexual orientation bias is not needed. This is stupid, ignorant "unseeing" philosophy.
If you are vicious mugger, beating and robbing to feed your need for money to buy coke or to buy flash, then that's what you are. A cruel uncaring sociopath. It isn't a crime of hate, but desire, the desire for money, and perhaps a taste for violence.
But if you pick a woman wearing "men's clothes", or with short hair, who is leaving a women's bar with another woman, and you "can't stand those f*****g queer lesbians" so beat and rob her, all the while not really caring if she has money or not, THAT is hate. No different than robbing and beating a woman wih 3 kids leaving a synagogue in an SUV because "all Jews are worthless anyhow".

Mark, your friend's problem seems to be his feeling that if he took part in a a sexual act more often part of the "gay" lifestyle he would be considered gay, or "less than human"

Sighs and leaves the soapbox for a while

Linda (WW)

__________________
"I wondered, am I a lesbian, am I straight, or bisexual? Then I realized that I am just a slut.
So where's MY parade?"

---Margaret Cho

Well WW what you said wasn't exactly the message I was wanting to start with this thread, but the cat is out of the bag as they say now. I touched on prejudice briefly as a closing argument in regards to the pub job. I am not sure where I went amiss in my opening statements, but I was trying to say that their is a stigma in regards to people thinking that couples who engage in certain sex acts, ie the wife is fucking her husband in the ass with a strap on. My friend who I mentioned would consider this gay. Why because the husband is being anally penetrated by his wife? Or is it the stigma that only gay people do this? As I tried to portray he has some issues with sexuality and what it actually is.

I am sorry if I hit a nerve on this, but it wasn't my intention.

__________________
My stories
An erotic story
The instructor and student
Secretary learns how to take a dicktation
The story of sister stephanie

Shouldn't the act itself warrant the punishment? Regardless of the mindframe or intent?

Part of the problem in this country is that there are too many laws in place trying to cover every single possible scenario that could happen. Murder is murder. Assault is assault. Rape is rape. I'm not saying that it's ok for people to target others for any reason at all, just that the reprocussions for their actions should be based upon the crime that they commit, and not be magnified or minimized because of their intent. Should the people that killed Matthew Shepard be sentenced differently than those involved in the Central Park Jogger case had she died? I say "no!". Please don't look at that as uncaring...for it's exactly the opposite. I don't care why you kill someone and what you were thinking when you did it...that you did it pisses me off, and for doing it you lose your right to suck up my precious oxygen. I'm very, very pro-punishment. And I have little tolerance for excuses. I guess that's why it doesn't matter to me what people are thinking when they break the law.

I'm truly sorry for the pain you experience because of cretins.

Taking nothing away from where this discussion has gone, I wanted to address what seems to be Mark's original question.

I think that many men have a need to assert their masculinity at all times - note "many", not "all". That being said, getting any kind of pleasure from, or even submitting to, anal play is seen as gay. This is how gay men have sex, so straight men shouldn't do it, because they'll feel less like a man. I think that this taps into the latent homophobia that many men feel. Why they feel this way I do not know, but many men are afraid of being seen as gay, and for this reason, there is the stigma of having anal contact, and, horror of horrors, enjoying it.

__________________
I see your fantasy... you want to make it a reality

Are you in the mood to be subdued

You see these shackles
Baby I’m your slave
I’ll let you whip me if I misbehave

Tie me to the bedpost

I like it rough
cause I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all

A wise person that I respect, admire and adore once said "A label is only a label if you let it stick".


Personally, if her finger finds its way into my arse while her mouth is around my penis...I don't care what it's called, it's good! If she wanted to try strap-on sex...I would engage in it with her. God knows she's indulged crazier ideas than that at my whim. lol

__________________
Though I am different from you,
We were born involved in one another.

For it was not into my ear you whispered, but into my heart. It was not my lips you kissed, but my soul.

Complete surrender should not just come at moments in which one faces overwhelming odds, but in the calm when it seems one is personally in complete control of one's life.