Yes, fear and/or hunger could drive some of the peasants, I agree. I am asking about those with guns and arms, a very large number of people there own guns and could EASILY overthrow Saddam had they really wanted to.

Now that America is attacking it would seem that those wanting freedom would help out, but instead they are taking to the streets against American occupation. I don't get it.

It makes no sense to me that if living conditional are so bad and everyone there has been raped or tourtured by Saddam and his sons the people would just cope. I don't know of a single person who wouldn't stand up to oppression and fight in that kind of a condition, especially if you have a family. I would really like to see what the overall living conditions are, not just the selected areas we are able to see on the news.

I guess what I am trying to get at, is what is it that he offers to these people to make them commit such acts? Why are they so happy to do so? I am not talking about the poor peasants, I am talking about the upper levels of the armed forces there, what keeps them from turning the guns against Saddam? I know if I had been treated as badly as the news reports everyone has been I would turn my gun on an oppressive government as soon as it was put into my hands.

__________________
-Deno

Deno---The main difference,is that to you it's an inconvience,
to them;it's what they have always known.Saddam has offered
1000s of dollars reward for a dead American.He has offered,at
least $10,000 more,for one alive.Do you have any idea how much that is to those people? Irish
P.S.Kind of puts a whole new meaning to the bumper sticker---
"When guns are outlawed,only outlaws will have guns!"OK,I
won't start a firearms debate.

__________________
Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

Demo,

I am unaware that the average Iraqi citizen had access to firearms, as you suggest. I was under the impression that the regime of Saddam Hussein restricted access to these devices. If firearms were generally available to Iraqi citizens, then it would stand as a unique exception in the annals of dictatorships. I should like to read up on this. Would you provide me with your references when you get a chance?

Now that America is attacking, it seems that those wanting freedom are indeed welcoming their liberators. "Applause as Marines enter Basra", BBC World Service, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2875777.stm

I don’t recall reading that "… everyone there has been raped or tortured by Saddam and his sons". The trick, as I have had it explained to me, is to release enough torture victims who will tell their tales to the general public, to ensure that the general public remains in fear of their lives. A reprehensible practice, but one which is, I am led to believe, effective.

I know many people who would knuckle under to the threat of torture or execution, and truth be told, I would probably (I like to think not, but I hope never to be put to the test) be numbered among them. Both you and I know that that is what happened in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and still exists today in Communist China, Burma, Syria, and a distressingly large number of other countries.

I tell you again, if you have children, your first thoughts are how to protect them. Now, I will admit, that is very much my opinion, and perhaps other people don’t think as highly of their offspring as I do of mine. Perhaps we could invite those members of our community who are parents to share. This way you won’t have to rely on merely what I have to say.

In re the "overall living conditions" about which you inquire: they are awful – and deteriorating. Permit me to refer you to an anti-embargo reference from which this quote comes. "In addition to the scarcity of resources, malnutrition problems also seem to stem from the massive deterioration in basic infrastructure, in particular in the water-supply and waste disposal systems. The most vulnerable groups have been the hardest hit, especially children under five years of age who are being exposed to unhygienic conditions, particularly in urban centers. The World Food Program estimates that access to potable water is currently 50 percent of the 1990 level in urban areas and only 33 percent in rural areas."
"Iraq and Sanctions: Myth & Reality", Voices in the Wilderness, http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/pag...lity_print.html
We can debate at leisure the why and wherefore, but I trust this responds to your point.

Saddam Hussein’s regime offers wealth and power to those who are members. The top echelon lives better than you and I; they are most decidedly not treated badly. When expressed that way, I can see no reason whatsoever as to why the ones who could overthrow Saddam Hussein would overthrow Saddam Hussein.

__________________
Eudaimonia

FYI---This information was told to me,by my wife.I was out-
side,removing ice&snow.My wife was alternating between
watching NASCAR&war coverage.When I came in she told me that Iraqi soldiers were on the rooftops, of Bagdad,using women&
children as human shields!
As far as the question,of children.Even in the motorcycle(gang)
world,that is looked down on,by most people.That was one of the things that attracted me.Your,family,ride,possessions,etc.,were
off limits.If you had a problem,with a person,you took it up with them&left everything else alone.I have been riding for over 43yrs.
I would trust those people to protect my family before anyone.
Irish

__________________
Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

Irish,

Don't get your blood pressure up - yet. Given the folks involved, I suspect the best is yet to come.

__________________
Eudaimonia

Yeah, Irish, I saw the same reports.

I hope all the protesters take off their rose-colored glasses and take a real look at the regime they are trying to protect from being overthrown. If we were dealing with reasonable, civilized men, perhaps there may have been a reasonable, civilized resolution to this situation.

Based on what is becoming more and more apparent daily, the war is the only thing that Saddam and his beasts understand.

__________________
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)

"I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them."
- Ian L. Fleming (1908-1964)

gentlemen,

Do not demonize the enemy, lest ye be led astray!

__________________
Eudaimonia

I just saw this myself!In the last few days,Allied airplanes
have dropped thousands of fliers,explaining the proper way
to surrender.People have been waving a WHITE flag!When
the Marines step out,to accept their surrender,they(the
marines)are shot down.I'm as old as dirt,but a White flag,
ALWAYS meant that the others were done! Irish
P.S.I feel sorry for the people that want to surrender.I
would probably shoot them!

__________________
Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

I think that I will wait until everything is evaluated,before I pass
on anymore information.Last night,on three different networks,
they related on how a "huge"plant for making chemical weapons
had been found.One said that it was 60mi.south of Baghdad,one said 100mi.,&one said 80mi.While the important thing is that the
plant is the,proverbial"smoking gun",every network,gives a different estimation.I can't help but be reminded of the VN war
(excuse me,CONFLICT),where they told the people WHAT they wanted to hear,not the truth!Ex.---(9000 enemy killed,no Americans!) Irish

__________________
Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

You are in luck sir!

While I cannot tell you the name of the television program Irish watched, I can provide you with the url to the Sports Illustrated article on the topic

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si.../son_of_saddam/

si.com, "Son of Saddam"

here is one short quote from the article, if you are too pressed for time to follow the link:

"I wish they would run their hands over our scars, see the pain in our eyes and float in raw sewage. Then there would be no questions."

Hope this helps.

__________________
Eudaimonia

Very enlightening, jseal. I need not demonize the enemy. They seem to be achieving that on their own.

One question, where is the outcry by the human rights activists against Saddam and his regime? Why all the venom toward George Bush? The U.S. is forcing an end to one of the most brutal regimes in modern times, and all the protestors can do is demonize the President of the United States. It seems the moral outrage is a little bit late, and grossly misdirected.

I just don't get it...

__________________
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)

"I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them."
- Ian L. Fleming (1908-1964)

H@rd Rock---First of all,so I won't be labeled as prejudiced,
let me say that I'm NOT Republican!I&my wife are both
registered as independants.From watching everything,it seems
to both of us,that this has been more of an anti-Bush protest,
than it has a human rights campaign.I voted for John McCain,
in the primary but I believe in supporting my President. Irish

__________________
Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)