I'm not going to discuss wether or not it is right to invade!I was in
the military,between the ages of 17-21.I graduated at 17&
enlisted.I know,from experience here, that the members care
about the feelings of others.I got very hardened emotionally,
seeing the atrocities,done to people, in Veit Nam.The people in
battle are just doing as they are told.Otherwise, it's military jail!
Wether(sp?)you believe in what the soldiers are doing or not,
please support them when they are done.If they have shot
anyone,it was probably,just because they were scared shitless,
and afraid the other would harm them.Machoness kept me from
saying this when I was young&macho myself.When you have just been following orders&you come home,proud of yourself,for serving your country,right or wrong,it doesn't make you feel to
good to be called a"Baby Killer"&spit on.When you're that young,
you believe what your Govt. tells you&don't realise the lies that
are told you! Irish
P.S.That's 1961-1965,in case anyones wondering.

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Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

Irish - well put!!! I never served my country, though my father served in the Korean conflict .... I deeply appreciate the service given in my behalf by those who are in the armed services, especially now at this time of upheaval .... I happen to have 2 family members serving currently - 1 stationed in the middle east now. In America we are fortunate enough to not have had to deal with "war" inside our boundaries and so I think sometimes it is easy to forget that war really is hell - and when you are in hell, it is not always possible to make the choices you would most like to make! Thanks for taking the time to express and for opening the forum for others like me.

Whoo, boy, what an emotionally charged subject.

On the one hand, there is the 'war atrocity' argument: that the excuse of 'just following orders' was what was used by the Nazi underlings responsible for the mass murders and genocide druing the Second World War. Therefore, it is no excuse at all.

I must point out to those who would make this argument, however, the the US Military has an explicitly worded legal document to deal with this. Members of the US military, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, are required to follow all *lawful* orders of their superior officer. If a person in the field can show justification that the order issued is not lawful, then there is procedure outlined, which must be followed in order to avoid carrying out that order. In this particular case, the burder of proof is on the complaintaint to show the order was not lawful.

It is very difficult to do so. The US military can, does and has prosecuted members both for carrying out unlawful orders, and (more frequently) for failing to carry out lawful ones.

Even if you feel that the prosecution of the impending war against Iraq is wrong, please therefore, carefully direct your complaints, and possible anger where it belongs: at the current US administration, not at the soldier, sailor, or airmen in the field.

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On the kinkometer, my kink measures as a sine wave.

gekkogecko---When you're 17/18,you know nothing of a
"Uniform Code of Military Justice".You are a kid and just do
what your elders tell you.If you go to your superiors,superior,
you are asked why you didn't use the"Chain of Command"and
probably got busted in rank.Don't forget the times!(1961-1965)
I had a Tech Sargeants skill level,(5 stripes)when I was still a private(one
stripe)It also happened to two of my buddies.We were told by
our shop chief,not to hang around together,or we wouldn't
make rank.We each told him that as long as we didn't get any
"bad"time,he didn't pick our off duty friends.Every time that we
were awarded a promotion,he would"Red Line"our orders.
Would I do it again?Yes.A friend is a friend!We didn't even
have a"G.I. Bill! Irish
P.S.Most people don't believe the GI Bill statement.Check it out!

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Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

Well said Irish. And very well made points from you and Gecko. I appreciate those that serve our country, having had two brothers and several friends that served. I believe there are some soldiers that would be all to eager to gun down the enemy, but the majority (I hope) would only shoot so as to avoid being shot themselves. When this is over, you can be sure Irish, that any soldier I meet will have my support and respect. (That is of course provisional to the behaviour they display in my presence... if he's jumping around a bar being an ass... he might not have much of my respect... unless I decided to join him in jumping around! )

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Put me on wheels and I'll turn tricks.

Clever? Nah, I ran out of that years ago. But if you find this, let me know, k?
"The road goes ever on..." ~ Tolkien

In memory of my friend skip...
Go then, there are other worlds than these

Well said Irish, Please support are men & women in the service.

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just hope that for once common sense and a love of humanity prevails!---------not that I can see that happening---------God bless them all!

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Don't pet the sweaty things!!!!

Irish ..my dad was in the navy from 58-60 i believe.He was stationed in maine........YIKES!!! My dad just turned 60 ...i was born with rh negative blood and needed transfusions,guess who came to my rescue??? THE NAVY And when i at 2 months old in an accident whith my dad and one of his drinkin buddys...i needed another transfusion..they almost lost me.But his navy buddys came through again and ..here i am lol

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CAPTIVATE MY ATTENTION, POSSESS MY BODY, INVADE MY MIND, ROCK MY WORLD AND, CALL ME "YOUR" BITCH... YOU KNOW MY HUNGER, YOU OWN MY DESIRE, YOU HAVE MY WILL, TAKE ME BABY... DIVINE PLEASURE

Irish I also served in the military. It was for 7yrs, altho I never was in during a conflict missed Desert Storm by 2 days. I can say I still am proud to have served and applaud all who have served before me. Knowing that it is kill or be killed is a scary situation no matter how old you are.

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I have great abs, some men have six packs I have a keg!

i got respect for soldiers. when i was younger i went to join the marines and was told they wanted a few good men and i didn't qualify.

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i'm funnier looking

Hey i got my one good man

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CAPTIVATE MY ATTENTION, POSSESS MY BODY, INVADE MY MIND, ROCK MY WORLD AND, CALL ME "YOUR" BITCH... YOU KNOW MY HUNGER, YOU OWN MY DESIRE, YOU HAVE MY WILL, TAKE ME BABY... DIVINE PLEASURE

...both excellent quotes...

I was in the Army, and like Irish said, when you're 17, just out of school and away from home you do whatever the hell your superiors tell you.

In case anyone's interested, I think we need to stay out of Iraq militarily. Although I voted for "dubya", I think he's showing signs of war-mongering...

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong"

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I'm your Huckleberry.

Pausing for a moment, I have to think of how wonderful Pixies has been to enjoy every fantasy and freedom at. How nice it’s been to meet REAL people that you truly get to know and like. I guess it become very REAL for me. And the hook is that the REAL world is just outside our gate and where we ALL come from and ALL go to. SO!……….

I have to work my way to the front and while passing LixyChick, whisper in her ear, “Have a seat. I’ll take CHATTY duty today.”

I step over to the OldFart-Irish soapbox, but only to have a seat myself. This is nothing worth standing for.

I think only Love has had more words written it in an attempt to verbalize the incomprehensible.

Like you Irish, we came from a very different time, a very different culture, with very different beliefs and understandings. I think it was more like the one my father and 3 uncles were from when they served during WWII, and the one my grandfather and two great-uncles knew in WWI.

The people who are going, have no concept about where they’re going. Either do the people that are sending them, or the people that can only stand by and watch. And it’s a place that the solider can NOT conceive that he’s really been to. And when WAR happens, ATROCITIES happen. War IS an atrocity! And no other specie can do it like mankind. (mankind,… is that an oxymoron?) Probably the best words to describe what a solider will have is “Eternal periods of intense boredom, separated by moments of stark fucking terror.”

NO! I do not confuse the war with the solider. I don’t have to support a war to support the solider. He will have enough thrown at him.

And Aqu, you’re right.

You treat an asshole like an asshole. And that has nothing to do with where he’s been. Hell, he doesn’t even know where he’s been. Trust me on this one!

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The defense at Nuremberg was totally unacceptable for atrocities performed in a prison. A guard and a solider are NOT the same thing.

And it is a fact that we have these provisions in UCMJ. This VERY slippery slope that becomes overloaded with politics, as noted by Irish, and the contradicting necessity of having a ready protective and defending force to move decisively without question, is there. It also is EVALUATED in a quiet room, before a court-martial board in dress uniforms.

Unfortunately, the ACTIVATION of this provision sometimes happens where the air is alive with the smell gun powder and blood. Yes, blood has a very definite SMELL. It’s suppose to be made by a 20 year old kid that doesn’t even know he peed his pants a ½ hour ago, and doesn’t know the strange feeling surrounding his entire body isn’t because God is coming for him. It’s just every hair standing straight up. It does do that. It’s a physiological thing. It is suppose to be done by somebody who’s only contact with bamboo, until now, was a fishing pole with a pieces of string and a bobber at the end.
Wouldn’t it be nice if everything went as laid out in the book.

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GO NAVY

71-75 2nd Fleet Uss Forrestal

ASM 2 Flight Deck T/S "Proud to Have Served"

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