War: For or against it???
 

I am just curious as to how many of us pixies agree with going to war with Iraq, and who disagrees with this inevitable decision. As a military and combat veteran, I have first hand experience with the devastation of war. I have agreed with the need for, supported and have been involved in war and military conflict in the past, which includes Operation Just Cause (Panama), Operation Desert Shield/Storm (Persian Gulf), Kosovo and Bosnia. However, I do not agree with the current plans to go to war with Iraq. Perhaps part of my feelings with regards to this is the simple fact that I DO NOT trust any member of the Bush clan. Do not be fooled by Bush's propaganda ploys!

Among my many reasons for disagreeing with entertaining the thought of war with Iraq is that I remember what Bush said immediately post 9/11. That it is his goal to "rid the world of terrorists" and to bring all known terrorists "to justice." Given that, he has recently stated that the only way Hussein can avoid war with the U.S. is to leave Iraq and go into exile. That is not bringing a terrorist to justice. And he claims this war is part of his "war against terrorism."

One more thought, the U.S. is the ONLY country that has ever used a "true" weapon of mass-destruction against humanity.

I do not agree with war.
I do not agree with terrorism
I do not support domination of the weak and repressed
I do not think that "man" alone is -or indeed ever will be strong enough to manage radical change without bloodshed.


I support the peace keepers
I support those people who put the lives of others before their own.
I support the people carry through orders which they may themselves struggle with

I pray that this is over with quickly and that we , as a speices can get on with finding cures for the millions of ills this world has.


God bless everyone and hold them close.

I am not FOR war. People will die, and that is a human tragedy.

As much as I fear the loss of life, I also fear the potential for greater loss of life if the Iraqi madman is not challenged and stopped now. He does have chemical, biological, and possibly radiological weapons. There is no doubt of that. I'd rather those weapons be unleashed over there than in my backyard. Tough choice, but it is much more positive to end this now at a time and place of our choosing, than to stand back idly waiting for him to decide.

My thoughts and prayers are with all people of the world who are in harm's way.

I think I have become pretty vocal as of late with my opinion... I am a very strong war supporter as I am also a Bush supporter as well.

As I have said on earlier posts, NO one wants war, not even the President (no matter what any activist may claim). It is not about wanting war... it is about wanting our world (not just the US) to be a safer place.

I believe that Pres. Bush gave a great speach last night and I can honestly say that I am proud of our president, standing up for what is best for the world. It has been a long time since we have had a president to be proud of.

ducking (Let the tomatos begin flying)

As much as i want to keep my opinions to myself i must say:

I am not for war, but without it this tragedy will never end, it is an unending cycle with saddam, he knows how to play the world, and has done so the past 12 years with much success, we as free people could never understand the injustice that goes on in iraq, that killing of innocent human beings because they have a diffrent opinion than that of the leaders, we can say what we feel with understanding and freedom of knowing we will not face persacution, that is a freedom alot of people take for granted, because we can, in the perfect world thier would never be any wasteful killing, no war, everyone living in harmony, but this is far from a perfect world, and as the old saying goes, thier can never be true happiness without first feeling true pain! I believe for the people who think all is gold in iraq they should be willing to go there and live like a regular person over there be treated like an ordinary person in that country and get a true feel of what oppression really is, as i have stated I DO NOT condone sensless killing are killing of innocent people, but i cannot straddle the fence, in this case i believe the people of iraq need a big brother to rid themselves of a bully.

divot109, It is an unusual individual who wants war. Most people, especially those who can draw upon experience, prefer to avoid war.
History is replete with examples of wars that could have been avoided, and is also strewn with examples of failed appeasement – one might contrast the behavior of the current British PM with that of a 1930’s predecessor of his. On balance, I think that the world, and by inference the United States of America, will benefit from regime change in Baghdad.
It seems that we now have but a short wait to find out if this point of view is correct.

Divot109,

Iraq has used WMD (chemical and biological) against the Kurds.

War is VERY bad.

Giving this capability to religious fundamentalists is worse.

Fundamentalists come in all brands, just ask Oklahoma City.

I'm with celticangel.

War is hell, war is the last resort of all civilized people, but remember this: Without war, there would never have been a United States; Without War, France would now be part of greater Prussia; Without war, Europe would still be goose-stepping to "Deutchland Deutchland Über Alles". There are times when war, as terrible as it is, is necessary in order to prevent even greater horror. I believe this is one of them. This is also one of those times when we, as Americans, must put our political biases aside and show our support for the men and women over there who will, in les than 36 hours, be putting their lives on the line to extend the freedoms we enjoy here to the opressed Kurds and Shiites over there.

Divot:
Whatever your feelings on the impending war, it is not valid to support your position with a wildly inaccurate statement. making such a statement leads one to question your motives in opposing military action.

In the first World War, every major combattant used various forms of poison gas-a true weapon of mass destruction.
In the second world war, Germany used various forms of poison gas to commit the Holocaust against political prisoners, those labeled as ethnic undesirables, and the socially isolated.
In the Iran-Iraq war, teh Iraquis used mustard gas against the Iranians.
Both before and after this war, Mustard gas was used by the Iraquis to murder ethnic Kurds whom the Iraquis decided were ethnicly undesirable.

But apparently, by your use of the word "real" weapon of mass destruction, all this doesn't count.

Bullshit, bullshit, bllshit, bullshit, unmittigated and offensive bullshit.

As many of you know,I hate war,but support what is being done!
Unfortunately,the only thing that Saddam respects,is to be beat!
One thing that will always be in my memory,is going into an enemies,captured camp,and finding the body,of a previously,captured,and wounded G.I.The only place,the outer layer of skin,was left on his body,was on his feet,hands,head&
groin.It was obvious,from the look of horror&pain,on his face,that
the skin wasn't removed after he was dead.War is brutal.The G.I.
provided great entertainment,for the enemy!When you have lived your life in constant misery,you probably don't even think this is
wrong.Try to keep your head right after seeing something like that!For this & other reasons,I support our actions.Ritualistic torture is an everyday occurance there.There are even RAPE rooms,for your family,if you complain about the current Govt. Irish
P.S.I'd tell you more,but I'd have to KILL you!
Sorry,but my way of handling everything is humor!

I don't support this war. The international community doesn't support this war. Bush never had any interest in diplomacy. I think his actions are going to cause long-term damage to world peace.

Gekkogecko, Do please restrain your replies. Remember what Lilith did the last time someone posted, ah, intemperate comments, in a thread. While divot109 is inaccurate in his historical references, and the use of the nuclear weapons he refers to as being 'a "true" weapon of mass-destruction' reduced - BY TENS OF THOUSANDS - the anticipated casualties - BOTH CIVILIAN AS WELL AS MILITARY - never the less, flaming him will only have the thread censured/deleted yet again. It is by keeping one's composure under pressure that one retains a degree of civilization.

I have to wonder about the frances on interest in all this, they voted FOR resolution 1441 Why? could it be because they have great interest in Iraq and the regime that runs it? could it be that they care nothing about the sensless slaughter that continues thier everyday, the crimes against humanity? all because of the almighty dollar! again No sane person wants war!! but thier are times when force is the only answer, good, bad, are indiffrent, like gekkogecko said earliar if not for the US and others, france, germany and other nations would not enjoy the freedom that they have, this all can be debated and debated with each side having good reasons for feeling the way they do, but in doing so please have all the facts!!

And just a little side note:

If not for france helping the US during the revolutionary war where would we be? In the US

it really goes back to do we want to help a crippled nation be free of blood thirsty tyrant, are should the world sit on its hands and pretend that all is well in our wonderful fantasy world?

I am certain that as one of the worlds superpower leaders our president is not taking this lightly, I truely believe he is making the best decisions with the information he is being given.

And one last thing before i get off my soap box
I personally do not feel this is the place to argue any points For or Against war, to me pixies is a place to come and relax, Not air my political beliefs, or try and force them on anyone else, we all have opinions, but thats what they are OPINIONS!

I truely hope i have not offended anyone with my statements, but when just like others its something i feel strongly about.

now i'm off to try and forget about this

It's war.............politics, ethics morals, religion, safety, security, all wrapped up........everyone has strong feelings. All I ask is to be respectful and tolerant of eachother's views.

Remember everyone---"Anger is the wind,that blows out the
light of the mind!"Can't everyone just agree to disagree?
Irish
P.S.That change in the barometric pressure,in New England,
yesterday,was caused by the collective sigh,from Canadians,
when their P.M. said that Canada would REFRAIN from participating!

Gives Irish a thumbs-up

Steph, In re "his actions are going to cause long-term damage to world peace.": permit me to replace George Bush with Saddam Hussein as the "his", using these examples.

[On September 22, 1980, formations of Iraqi MiG-23s and MiG21s attacked Iran's air bases at Mehrabad and Doshen-Tappen (both near Tehran), as well as Tabriz, Bakhtaran, Ahvaz, Dezful, Urmia (sometimes cited as Urumiyeh), Hamadan, Sanandaj, and Abadan. Their aim was to destroy the Iranian air force on the ground…]

"Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988)", Federation of American Scientists, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm

and

[At 0200 2 August 1990, the Iraqi Hammurabi Armored and Tawakalna Mechanized Divisions supported by Iraqi Special Forces and the Median Armored Division invaded their neighbor to the southeast, the sovereign nation of Kuwait… At 0530 the battle for Kuwait City began. By 1400, the Iraqis had captured the capital.]

"Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm: Chronology and Fact Book", John H. Admire, Kevin Don Hutchison; Greenwood Press, 1995

How long a term are you using when you refer to this world peace?

In an attempt to bring some brevity to this thread:

"Overheard this morning at coffee: All the Walmarts in Baghdad will close effective on March 17, 2003, at which time they will become Targets." :D

Please keep speaking up! Everyone! It's the only way things get worked out.

To express my opinion on this subject, I believe the current administration has chosen to ignore and defy the vast majority opinion of the world, and strong opinion here in the US.

Possible mid-range outcome:

• Chirac becomes defacto leader and spokesperson for the EU, making them a superpower to rival the US.
  
  This war spawns ten times the terrorists we have now, planting seeds for future terrorism that will make 9/11 seem like childsplay.
  
  China will assume Soveriegn Authority to invade Taiwan.
  
  Russia will assume Soveriegn Authority to level Chechnya.
  
  Instead of rendering the UN irrelevant, the world will render the US less relevant.
  
  Hussein and his sons will escape at the last minute to one of his few refuges (Libya? Cuba?) and will continue to be an angry wasp spewing hatred into the world. I think it was irresponsible of Bush to offer this option.
  
  Bin Laden is laughing at us. He is our enemy, and we haven't been able to figure out how to find him (maybe at the last minute, these 150,000 troops will all of a sudden turn up on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border and cream everything in sight until Osama is found).
  
  Israel is under UN resolution sanction to pull out of occupied territory. Why don't we invade them unilaterally for defying a UN resolution?
  
  Nobody thinks Hussein has nuclear weapons, or any means to deliver these or other weapons to US targets, so he doesn't post an active threat to our security. It is proper to defend the weak against a bully, and it may be proper to defend a people against their corrupt leader, but this is not in our self-defense interests.
  
  The best way to save and support our men and women in the service is to not send them into war.
  
  If we attack tomorrow, and Saddam kills tens of thousands of his own with chemical or biological weapons, the blood will be on our hands, too. These deaths would not have occurred if we would not have attacked, at least not at this time.

I put two columns on a page and wrote down pros and cons about this war. Other than "Saddam is bad", I couldn't come up with a reason to support this action; I remain morally and spiritually opposed to this.

Get real about Isreal being invaded. The States supplies them with weapons and supporting equipment. There is a lot of money from the States that floods into Isreal. Sad case. You are right, they are in UN violation for having settlements on that territory.

I remember some crazy stuff when I was in Kosovo (not as a peace keeper). Let's just say that it was a very nervous experience being one of the few people there without a weapon. Great memories of spending wayyyyy too much money at John's Kukri Bar near the Grande Hotel. When you are in a place like that you need a bit o' booze to help numb yourself. There was nothing else to do there anyway.

As a final note for one of Seriousfun's comment: God help us all if Chirac becomes leader of the EU. Everytime I hear his name I think of Bugs Bunny cartoons and that frenchman Black Jacques Chirac!

seriousfun---How could Saddam kill so many people,with
biological or chemical weapons?He said that they had been
destroyed.You don't suppose that he would stretch the truth.
The French said today,that they would help also,if he uses
biological or chemical weapons.Sounds to me as if people don't
think that he's telling the truth! Irish
P.S.Different Strokes,for different folks!

Horseman12, If we can remain decent in how we express ourselves, I think this is an excellent place to air our opinions. We all have the absolute power to not visit this thread if it becomes unsavory.

I hope to read opinions other than mine made by people whose comments on other subjects (often about sex) I have read many times before. I like to believe that I can disagree with someone about WMDs and at the same time agree that Lilith’s a… ah, administrative ability is second to none!

IMO he's lying! I agree! Every country on earth lies about their military capability; it's called National Security. If we had to attack every country on earth with WMDs, lying or not, we'd have to strike at Russia and China first, then turn the knife on us.

Lying is not a capitol offense; in Saddam's case, it would be a breach of the UN resolutions, but the UN inspectors have not found conclusive proof. We'll only prove that he has these weapons if we go to war and either he uses them, or we win and we find them.

Re: France: either they are confident that no WMDs will be used so their statement is an easy one to make, or they are making a reational commitment and want their detractors to take a chill pill.

And what if the news media is wrong and the Bush Administration is right about WMD in Iraq. Also the silent majority is not called silent for a reason, what they have to say is not news worthy. God bless the American, British and Australian troops about to engage in war.

Messrs. Chirac & Schroder will now be assessing the Iraq situation from the sidelines. A choice to which they are entitled, but one which limits France's & Gemany's effectiveness.

uhhhhhhh News Media wrong...it seems they are in lockstep with the administration to me, but at any rate, it's another US freedom. It's the rest of the world that doesn't see eye-to-eye with our administration. Any media can report any facts not born out by evidence if they want, but there is no specific evidence that Iraq has WMDs. As I said above, we'll see.

I don't know if you are old enough to remember or not, but we already went through the "silent majority" thing in the '60s, and in retrospect the vast majority of us in the US agree that Vietnam was a bad place for us to be.

Of course, you will find us united in supporting the safe return of our service personnel.

Well, the French should not be taken seriously, sometimes: they like Jerry Lewis and make bad rock 'n roll.

They have the food and sex things down, though :D

:p HA....HA....HA....

seriousfun I was in the military in the late '60s and early '70s.

Then it may be OT, but do you as a vet believe we should have been in Vietnam?

If so, do you belive we managed that war properly?

I think you and I will agree that Vietnam vets were misguidedly given a bum rap by some.

I suspect that they don't see it as being in their interest. Also, they are rather preoccupied with some difficult situations in Francophone Africa. There was a coup in the Central African Republic last weekend, and a cease-fire the French negotiated/Imposed in Sierra Leone is in danger of falling apart. Their foreign affairs plate (at least one that might involve French troops) is a bit full at the moment.

I HIGHLY doubt that. This will most likely wake up many of the sleeper cells.. but it will not create more. If anything... it will give the long overdue message to those even remotely considering it that if they are stupid enough to try, they are signing their own death warrant.



Not very likely. We wouldn't allow them to be the mastermind behind killing the masses anymore than we are allowing Sadam to continue to kill his. That is a very very valid reason for us to clean out Sadam... the rape policy they have, the inhuman torture of his own people for his pleasure... sorry but that psyco has to go.




Rendering the UN irrelevant... PLEEEEZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEE... the UN has done that to themselves. The UN sanctions that were put into place over 12 years ago (giving Sadam 45 days to disarm mind you) have never been enforced. The US & Great Britian have attempted to convince the UN to follow thru to no avail.




Now.. here is something we agree on :) (it was bound to happen) :) I agree that this offer shouldn't have been made, altho I do see why it may have been done. I believe that the reason it was done was two fold. One reason being to give those wanting to and able to get out of that country time to do so (after all Sadam has taken hostages in the past least us forget), the other reason being to allow other countries to reconsider and support the action (strangely last count I heard was that atleast 30 other countries are supporting the US). I don't believe for a moment that Sadam would even briefly consider this option (and no doubt Bush knew he wouldn't either), afterall, if Sadam were to leave his country, he would be powerless (and quickly dead).





Bin Laden laughing? Not very likely. That evil bastard is too busy trying to come up with another way to destroy this country. He is an opportunist and no doubt is hoping that in someway this war will remove him enough from the spotlight that he can work his evil ways somehow. I highly doubt that he is pleased that Sadam has removed his limelight.




The only people that truly think that he doesn't have weapons of mass distruction are not informed enough. I don't worry about Sadam having nuclear weapons (N. Korea has that market covered), I worry about the other weapons... the chemical weapons, the musterd gas, the anthrax, etc. Sorry, those are mass enough for me. He has used many of them on his own people like lab rats...



As a veteran... I have personal experience that tells me that you are mistaken. The best way to support our military men and women is to keep them in our thoughts and prayers and to ensure that they have a country worth coming back to. The big difference in this war is that these men and women are VOLUNTEERS, they are not drafted. They live their lives protecting this country from foes and protecting our freedoms. The best way to support these men and women is to send them care packages while they are away, to send them a note to asure them that when they return they will not have to live thru the hell that those drafted during Vietnam had to when they returned home.



Don't make any mistake about it, Saddam has tasted the blood of his people, and just like a rabid dog he thirsts for it. He doesn't care about their lives... and the bottom line is that we do. We want to spare them from a future under this lunitic.. having to live everyday wondering if you will die for his pleasure.



seriousfun.... I must thank you... altho we have very different views on this.. I appreciate the opportunity to debate with you... HUGS...

I just like looking at your avatar butt ;)

ROFL... I am glad it pleases you. ;)

make love not war, baby

That's a perfect example of what I posted to horesman12! While I don't share your visions of the future post Saddam, I too love her avatar butt! Big Time!

jseal, i understand fully, and just like others i have an opinion, i voiced it and am moving on to greener pastures.

a great image to go along with the discussion :)

Jenna your answers there just made you even more sexy (well the av helps too ;) )