Lilith,

You retain you delightful unpredictability! I had anticipated that Steph would respond to the post I addressed to her, and that you would respond to the post I addressed to you – and you mixed it all up! :)

As to my post to Steph; she asserted that a proposition was obvious. I challenged the assertion by identifying several propositions which were are one time or another, taken for granted, but are no longer. As the evidence supporting one’s notions of what is obvious changes, so should one’s notions of what is obvious. That seems to be a sensible approach to me.

As to what my unease with arguments from authority has to do with your feelings that that plantations were the birthplace of gospel music – nothing whatever. Steph’s assertion that X is obvious without substantiation is what I disagreed with. I went to some effort to exclude the subject about which she and I disagreed from my post.

I am somewhat surprised that my suggestion that the Pilgrim Baptist Church has a good claim to be the location where “Gospel Music” originated in the 1930s has been met with quite such belligerent disagreement. I had thought it a relatively innocuous comment.

I also think it is fair to suggest that those who question assertions made by others implicitly validate the notion of questioning authority. If it is reasonable for one to question the claims made by another, surely it is reasonable to provide supporting evidence and/or arguments? Is not that what conversation is about – the communication of ideas? Further, if you’ll agree that it is reasonable for one individual in conversation to question the propositions made by the other, wouldn’t you also agree that the second might be entitled to similar expectations?

You suggested that that the plantations were the birthplace of gospel music as an alternative to Chicago in the 1930s. This had all the ingredients of Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. So far so good and I tried to support my opinion by referring to what some others have had to say about the subject. But when I asked for additional information, you seemed hurt or offended, as if I was not entitled to request more of what you had to say to help me understand why you expressed your opinion.

Perhaps we have different ideas about the nature and value of conversation.

We do indeed. What you describe is debate in my eyes. Conversation, to me, is what I have had in this thread with people like BIBI. A free flowing exchange of ideas with no expectations as to the credentials or assimilation or agreement associated with those ideas. I believe the difference lies in what you expect from the exchange with others. I expect to listen to diverse views and see them as just that, views. You continuously push people to feel as if they must somehow defend themselves. You, in my opinion, actually stifle conversation when you put requirements on others. You restrict the free flow of ideas by requiring proof, validation, references, credentials. In your own words "I challenged her...", that's not conversation to me.I expect to be able to state my views here and people to view them as just that my views. I stated clearly that from what I have learned and my own experience gospel began on plantations. You can not debate that. If you want a debate find a debate forum.

Lilith,

Well, at least we agree that we disagree! :)

I do think that such notions of conversation are unfortunately limiting. Still, unto each his or her own.

I guess then that it is OK for me to say that the Pilgrim Baptist Church in Chicago was the church where Gospel Music got it's start?

It is perfectly OK for you to say anything you want about that church. And it's perfectly OK for me to think differently. Just because I disagreed with you doesn't mean that you can't. THAT is the difference, one of many I am sure, between you and me. I have the ability to think something different and still accept that you may view it otherwise...and I don't expect you to change your mind or prove to me why you think differently. Just knowing you view it differently is good enough.

After following this thread, I finally removed the ONE name I have blocked. It wasn’t surprising to read the voids.
ie.

A post with another prospective doesn’t seem be an adequate response. There seems to be a mission to antagonize until a BLUNT response states that somebody doesn’t give a shit about another’s arrogant and pompous views. The confusing part comes when the fight that was picked starts, the pickers first shield becomes the skirt of the cop on duty who's primary duty is to stop fights.

When somebody stirs the pop, they should have the taste for the soup and hold onto the spoon. :mad:





Excuse me now. I have work to do again to my ignore list. :rolleyes:

PantyFanatic,

Good for you!

Steph's out preaching the gospel today for our NDP party.....grrrr elections!!!;)

The world will become one homogenized pile of PC.

Alleluia! I preached to many! :D

Did you take your soap box Steph?

Lilith,

You may be onto something here. We both agree that we can disagree. One issue where we might disagree is if disagreement need be a terminus. I do feel that point need not end a conversation, but can be the starting point from which we can learn from the other. Mind you, there is no requirement that we do so, only that we can if both contribute.

:(







:mad: Now look what you did! :mad:

The Pilgrim Baptist Church...



Is that over by the O'Leary place? :confused:

not anymore :o















:D * hands WI the paddle and bends over :D

WildIrish,

WAS over by the O'Leary place. It was pretty much totaled…

Fire Destroys Landmark Chicago Church
By KAREN HAWKINS, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jan 7, 2:39 PM ET


CHICAGO - The architecture was majestic, the gospel choir was inspiring and services at the Pilgrim Baptist Church were so popular that worshippers in the 1930s and '40s had to show up an hour early to find a seat.

On Friday, the 115-year-old church, an integral part of the development of gospel music, was destroyed by a fire so intense that its flames and smoke could be seen from miles away. The fire gutted the church and collapsed its roof and steeple. The cause wasn't known.

"It was a landmark church. God, it was just so beautiful," said Lena McLin, who was baptized at Pilgrim as a 12-year-old in the early 1940s. "It was very spiritual — you felt you were meeting the Lord there."

McLin's uncle was Thomas A. Dorsey — considered the father of gospel music — and Pilgrim was where he perfected his cross of the raw soulfulness of the blues with the sacred music of his youth. His all-time greatest hit, "Take My Hand, Precious Lord," was popularized by Mahalia Jackson and became a favorite of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

He was Pilgrim's music director from 1932 until the late 1970s. The church was designated a Chicago landmark in 1981.

Over the decades, the gospel stars who performed at Pilgrim included Jackson, Sallie Martin, James Cleveland and the Edwin Hawkins Singers. The funeral service for early 20th century boxing champion Jack Johnson was held at the church.

The congregation recently numbered about 300, but in its heyday in the 1940s it had about 10,000 members, said the Rev. Hycel B. Taylor, the church's former pastor.

It had been "the quintessential black megachurch," he said.

The church was a place where the famous architects Louis Sullivan and Dankmar Adler experimented with the features that made them famous — such as vaulted ceilings, amazing acoustics and ornamental designs, such as the terra cotta panels with intricate foliage designs, said Ned Cramer, curator of the Chicago Architecture Foundation.

It was built as a synagogue between 1890 and 1891, but it has housed the Pilgrim congregation since 1922. The surrounding Bronzeville neighborhood was a vibrant hub for blacks during the first half of the 20th century.

"It's like hearing a close relative has died or a good friend. It's heartbreaking," said Cramer.

Though no one was injured in the blaze, it is feared the church's archives — including old photographs and Dorsey's original sheet music — were destroyed.

McLin said she's hopeful that Dorsey's wife might have sent some of those mementoes to Fisk University, where the family choose to deposit some of Dorsey's belongings. But she is sure a huge painting of her uncle — whom she lived with as a child — was destroyed.

Still, she said, she'll never forget the feeling of being in that church, surrounded by thousands of worshippers packed on the floor and the balcony, listening to gospel music.

"The spirit was just all over the place," she said.

Associated Press Writer Anna Johnson contributed to this report

This article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060107...ark_church_fire