I wasn't suggesting you made up the number DB I was referring to the number of dangerous incidents or deaths due to abortion complications. If there are 3,000 abortions a day then there would be much more real evidence of a problem with the procedure if it were the case that it was exceedingly dangerous to the woman. As for issues like breast cancer, that risk is present in cases of miscarriage as well. My understanding is that women who are overweight are at a much greater risk of breast cancer but I don't think the government needs to make decisions about their grocery lists.

That ^^ sums up my views on the subject. I believe a woman has a right to choose whether to have an abortion...although I don't want anyone to make such a decision lightly, or to view abortion as an easy form of birth control.

If the particulars of Roe vs. Wade were overturned and tweeked...the "hanger abortion" and the "back alley" abortion rate would be booming...therefore posing more of a health risk on a woman than legal abortion is today!

This country has taken sooooooooooooooo many steps back into the past since the current Bush administration. I can't bear to see another in such a delicate subject.

For those who think that abortion is "murder"...where is the support of these mothers-to-be and the willingness to care for ALL of these babies when the mother carries it to term and cannot care for it...whatever the circumstance? I may be wrong (it's happened...once!), but I know of NO SUPPORT GROUPS OR ADOPTION AGENCIES OR AFTER-CARE CLINICS directed by Pro-Lifer's!!!!!! All I know is that pro-lifer's, in front of a clinic, badger and demean a woman into feeling 5000x's worse than they already do! They spend more time on posters than they do on help for the person they are demeaning!

These babies could end up in orphanages and never be adopted! A lot of the babies would have special needs...ie: addictions, birth deffects...etc. Some would spend their lives with their birth mother in sub-human situations that you and I can hardly imagine.

You can say it all you want, "abortion is murder"...but to ever have to walk a mile in the shoes of one who chooses to abort is the most compelling walk you'll ever take! It's not an easy decision!!! Most of the girls/women educate themselves of the hazzards, know the risks, understand the moral issues, hide in shame, get pelted with relentless accusations upon entering a clinic, live with depression before and after, and keep a secret for the rest of their lives! A LEGAL secret at that!

I'm with BIBI on this issue! If it isn't YOUR body...don't tell me what I can and can't do with mine! I'll handle the morals in my life! You've no right to tell me how I should live...according to YOUR rules and morals. Just because you wouldn't do it...doesn't make me a monster! You don't know me or my circumstance. Don't inflict your feelings on me and I'll return the favor! I would NEVER go around preaching to you that you should abort! Don't tell me I shouldn't! You didn't know me before...and you'll not know me or care for me after, no matter what I choose!

Conversely...If there is any chance that you can carry to term and know that you can make a childless person/couple happy with your gift of life...more power to you!

Abortion isn't about being FOR death. It's about choice. Clinics don't overwhelm a girl with the pros of abortion...but instead, talk of ALL the choices available so that she can make an educted decision...one SHE can/must live with. After all...it is HER life...NOT YOURS!

If she HAS to go back to the days of dark alleys and coat hangers...SHE WILL. No matter what you do with this law...a girl will do what a girl's gotta do!

P.S. That G.W.B. has had the opportunity to make another Supreme Court appointment makes me feel even more compelled to find the end of the planet so I can jump off!

LixyChick,

Although the world would be a much poorer place without you, and I am sure that I am only one among many who would mourn such a precipitous (if you’ll pardon the word) decision, it is with a heavy heart, and only because I am a slave to duty, that I feel obligated – nay, impelled – to provide you with assistance in such a dreaded act. :eek:

Herewith, to provide you with the chance you request, I provide you with the dreaded link to The Flat Earth Society. There I can only presume you will find the awful, occult knowledge needed to pursue your desperate goal! But please, I beseech you; reflect upon this terrible decision for a little while longer. Don’t, ah, jump to any conclusions!

And at the end, if all other possible escape routes for you from this administration seem blocked, remember this – he can’t run again. :D

What if the father wanted to take care of the baby? I think a father should have that right. Conversely, I do not think that a father should be able to force a woman to have an abortion if she wanted to take care of the baby.

Ditto WI's statement...I would be devastated.

If I am understanding your post correctly....

Are you saying that a man should be able to stop an abortion if he wants to take care the future child? How could he be forced to do this if he changed his mind? Should he be forced to be a father and if so how can he be?

My god that would mean that any man could control a woman's body if he saw fit. I think we quit being chattel a long time ago.

If the man doesn't want the woman to have the pregnancy go to term, does that mean he gives up his rights and responsibilities to that child?
In other words does he forfiet his responsibility to provide support whether it be monetary or otherwise because he didn't want it in the first place?

Yes, if the man wants to be a loving father to that baby. Yes indeed.

Change his mind? Do you mean that he says he wants it month 3 and then decides "no" in Month 8? Good question...whatever the answer, even if it is adoption, is better than murder.




I do not think a man has a right to force a woman into having an abortion. No way, no how.

I imagine the worst-case situation, where a woman is raped. The biological father...a rapist...has a choice whether or not he wants her to have a baby. She wants to abort, but he wants a child. So she's forced to carry the child of a rapist to term, and then turn the kid over to him? Yikes.

Equally bad in cases of incest. Or how about a man who is abusive to his girlfriend/wife but still wants kids? Shouldn't that be the woman's choice to bring the child into the world (or not)?

I think most mature women -- under normal circumstances -- will talk it over with the man. While any guy I'd have sex with could have an opinion, in the end I feel it should be my decision whether to have the child or not.

There would clearly need to be an exception for cases such as these. I'm thinking more along the lines of a consensual circumstance. Now, she could lie and say he raped her...which would create a real legal mess. Solving in a timely fashion would be critical...obviously.




Good question...

Such a complex situation! Personally (IM very humble opinion) I believe we should spend more time developing morals in our children, rather than trying to legislate them.

There are some really good parents out there (and I'm sure you and your wife are among them!), but those kids aren't the ones (generally) that need the laws. We're trying to legislate for the *rest* of society, rather than nipping the problem in the bud.

I can imagine a situation where I would need to have an abortion, and I don't want this right taken away from me. But it'd be a damn unusual situation, and would be a very hard decision for me to make.

First off I never said that you thought a man had a right to force an abortion. What I said was does the man, if he does not want the child carried to full term, still have the responsibility to support said child?

It's unfortunate that you would force a woman,to carry a child she did not want in the first place,if you wanted the child upon birth. Yet you give men the right to decide if they if they don't want it after birth,to have it placed elsewhere. IMO that is a double standard at the very least, then I don't look at a theraputic abortion as murder and that is where the differences lie and will never come together.

See you may find it hard to believe from my posts, but personally I don't think I could have ever had an abortion when younger but now if I got pregnant I would be there in a minute. That is my personal choice and yet I would never ever inflict my belief system onto anyone else who was facing what must be one of the most difficult decisions of their life.

ROFLMFAOPMP :D :D :D
That’s all I have to say about THAT!





As for the rest, it’s been an interesting read ……… after a couple days of thinking about the original questions that Lixy posed, I do now have something to post.

Bibi said it ALL for me. I KNOW I do not, and NEVER will, have a right to even an opinion on something that I can NEVER know. I do not believe that any other man has that right either.





Those numbers caught my attention right from the start. Just the initial post meant that there had to be an average of half a century of data. I know that you can find almost ANYTHIG you want on such a controversial subject, but, as Lil noted, those just jumped out as having as much ‘cause’ as ‘information’ involved with them………. Maybe more. ;)



Many of my BASIC feelings are expressed here. ‘Protecting OTHERS’ from someone seems to often turn into ‘protection from ourselves’ at any price. Law makers have neither the means nor the right to decide what is good for me.



[see above statement and keep it in context]
I believe that making any law that the is completely unenforceable is a waste and makes fools out of the entire system.




The problem with ‘electing’ a life long position that is perhaps more important and powerful than the Presidency, is that it would mean that power and money would be the driving force. Can you imagine the campaign bullshit that would cover EVER aspect of the person being put in THAT position by the professional liars and thieves that run the rest of our elections? No thanks! As Lilith said, (god, how it hurts to keep saying that :rolleyes: ) every wart on their ass should be scrutinized from the day they were born. Now if the congress that is going to bequeath these dictatorial powers, would be as sincere and representative of the people they are doing this ‘for’, instead of ‘party line’ oriented, we MAY have a chance of the constitution being related to the needs and wants of the population.

PS

I would like to see the candidate for any high office be subjected to the same few days of public review rather than the two years of games and power-playing bull that we have now.

Just a thought...

If a man wants to be a "loving father", I feel like he should find a mate who is as willing to provide him with a child.

In other words...in most cases where a woman wants to end a pregnancy, the pregnancy was an accident on both participant's parts. The only scenario I can think of where both parties would want to have a baby together and then after conception chose to abort, would be for a medical necessity of some sort. All in all, it's usually an accidental pregnancy.

That said, it seems to me that the "couple" (and I use the term lightly) should have discussed their views on the "what if's" well before such an incident occurs. Most often, this is NOT the case. Ergo the term "accident".

After such an "accident", why should it then be OK for the man to decide the fate of the woman and therefore the unborn child based solely on HIS feelings and morals? Is she just a vessel? Doesn't this unwanted/accidental pregnancy impact her life far more than it does his?

Just a thought...

P.S. ROFLMAO@jseal! Looks like I may have some new friends. Thanks for the link hun!

Gentlefolk,

For any one who may be interested, here is the Row v. Wade ruling:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scrip...l=410&invol=113

PantyFanatic................... :p

At least I fix my typos contrary to others whom I shall not mention :D

Bibi...................... :)

What's a 'typo'? :confused:




















ROFL :D

Well, you certainly live a sheltered life, but I am more than willing to teach by example, so the next time I see you have made a typo, I shall be sure to point it out to you in order for you to have a full understanding..... :p

LMAO :D

I think this sums up my feeling perfectly. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

Not to stir up the hornets nest, but let me ask this, today Bush said,
"You believe, as I do, that every human life has value, that the strong have a duty to protect the weak, and that the self-evident truths of the Declaration of Independence apply to everyone, not just to those considered healthy or wanted or convenient," to a group of abortion foes.
My question is simply, seeing how he has gotten us into two wars, not properly equipped our troops with needed armor, and is more than willing to torture and use capital punishment (I'll leave arguments about Medicare spending and medication for the poor to those who understand it better than I), is this statement completely hypocritical?
Is this just a anti-abortion double standard where it's ok to kill anyone who has already been born, but not a fetus, or is there truly some disconnect that he can't see that supporting one would imply support for the other?
I just don't understand. In my mind, abortion, whether or not you support it, is not the cause of problems, it's an effect. And you don't treat effects if you want to cure a problem. There's so much effort in trying to prevent abortion, but can we have decent sex ed in this country to prevent teens from getting accidentally pregnant? No, of course not. Can we distribute birth control or teach people how to use them? No. What about setting up serious programs to allow people to pay for and provide prenatal funding, care, and adoption services for pregnant women who are not able to pay for the expenses (actual and emotional) incurred during pregnancy? There may be groups out there that do that, but I'm not aware of any. Just once, instead of seeing a protester yell at a woman choosing to get an abortion, I'd like to see someone offer to take the woman in, pay all costs, adopt the child, and not preach to them. WWJD? I believe the answer is not accuse them. That's just my feeling on it.
Also, while I'm ranting, instead of spending a ton of money on IVF, spend that money on adoption. This is a little off topic, but it ticks me off to see people have multiple children due to IVF and then thank God. Maybe God didn't want you to have your own kids...maybe you were supposed to foster or adopt, but no, you had to take matters into your own hands.

Stepping off the soapbox now, sorry for the rant.

'Rants' (your prospective on common issues) are exactly what gives us all something to think about. Your IVF thought is something new for me to mull around.



thanks ;)

fred...

It seems to me that G.W.B. doesn't consider that his current topic could intertwine with any other issue that this country is up against. IMHO he's too sheltered and surrounded by Yes men and women. He's fed his words on paper to repeat, instead of his speeches coming from the heart, right off the top of his head. You'll see that look of surprise on his face and I've actually pictured the mice running on the wheel in his head, when a reporter asks him a question that should have a spontaneous answer in correlation to his topic. This is when he stumbles and bumbles the most.

Makes for great "Bushism's" though!

In order for Alito to actually be considered for the Supreme Court, he should have to beat Chyna in a nude jello wrestling contest.

She'd kill him :D Break his neck like a twig. Pop his head like a zit.

Damn Fred... I agree with so much of what you said there. You asked about groups that offer services to pregnant women in need... Catholic Community Services is a big one. They are all over the country and they offer most, if not all, of the services you described above.

I think it's a big double standard to claim you're pro-life and yet support the death penalty and I also believe we need a strong sex ed program coupled with a system for distributing birth control easily.

And your last comment about IVF is something I agree wholeheartedly with.

This is something I have always wrestled with as I support the DP yet opposed abortion. Maybe it is because a baby is innocent but a criminal is not. I dunno...

Some HEAVY shit here...



rabbit

personal opinion...the most that can happen is the court will say "abortion is not a constitutional issue". this wont make abortion illegal...it will simply put the issue in front of the states to be voted on...how it should be done. if you want "right to control your body" or "right to an abortion" in the constitution...then it needs an ammendment. but the constitution was written as loosely as it was because the country at the time wanted it that way...to avoid the federal government from having too much say in their personal lives. if its now a written right...then each state needs to handle the issue as they deem fit. while granted some further right states will probably vote against it...thats kinda what our country is about.

n btw...i totally believe in a womans right to choose...but i also would never want a girl i date to have an abortion(medical problem aside).

And thanks to all of you. Imagine, a rational discussion about a very highly emotionally charged issue. Have I mentioned recently how great you all are?

I was getting a little scared at where this was headed...but I agree with you wholeheartedly...

We have a great buncho peeps here!

(((((EVERYONE)))))

I think that even though some, well, make that most of us, are firmly planted on where we stand on issues such as this, that we all REALIZE and RESPECT(that as much as we would like to change other peoples minds to think more towards our own personal beliefs), that every individual must decide for themselves what they believe is right. Not just only with abortion, but with all aspects of our lives.

I chose to put nude photos of myself here, other people think that nudity in all of it's forms is morally wrong. I personnally think not, but there are those that will put me down and argue with me until they are blue in the face and don't respect me. (i know that it is a whole other can-o-worms, but you see my analagy)

in this thread, to me it looks like we are stating our views but are choosing to agree to disagree.

I'm keeping my mouth shut because it's obvious that we can't be discussing fathers here.

And by that, I mean "fathers", not sperm donors.

(((wi)))
but i (and a few others) stood up for the dads. :(

You are correct, at least as far as I am concerned. There is a difference.

I'm afraid I don't see what all the who-ha is about with Alito, if the abortion question came up to day with the Supreme Court the vote would most likely be 6-3, when Alito gets confirmed then the vote will be 5-4 and will not change a thing in the long run. We have had 'bad' judges on the Court in the last 200 yrs and we will have more in the future and yet are country is still here. Poeple should fine something important to spend so much time on. How about Cancer for starters?

Well considering that the Supreme Court will be the final say on stem cell research I think that stresses the importance of who we put on it.

Amen, brother.

That’s interesting. I was unaware of any Federal lawsuits involving stem cell research having been appealed to the Supreme Court on constitutional grounds.

i hope none are. heck in my opinion abortion isnt a constitutional issue. nowhere in the constitution is it anywhere near covered. let the states(your immediate electorate) vote on it. same with stem cell research. the federal government should never have this much control over your personal lives.

I believe at some point it will be and since the justices' reign is for life it makes the appointment scouring a necessary evil.