I agree with you on that point Lilith, however (and at the risk of straying from the topic), I think there needs to be a change in the support/visitation system. If a man is responsible for the creation of a child he is responsible for supporting that child. I also would hope he would do his best to be a father for the child and not just a paycheck. In cases where he is not given that opportunity because the mother decides she doesn't want to tell him about the child (until, say, 10 years down the road) I don't believe he should be financially responsible at that point, unless he wants to be. In this scenario he was not given the choice of being a father for those ten years so he should not be charged support for that time. Given a case where the mother believes the father's involvement in the life of the child would be harmful then she names him as the father and has the court limit his access.

I agree there is a huge problem with that. I have seen it in my district dependency court. The problem is that often it's a he said/she said regarding whther the man was told.

My thoughts are real simple on this matter.

When men can carry a baby and give birth, only then should they have any say in the matter. A woman's body is just that...hers.

No one should tell a woman what she can and can't do regarding her body. If a man does not want to live up to his responsibilities and rights as a parent, he will find a way not to anyway without having any say in the matter of abortion.

I am of the belief that abortion should not be used as a means of birth control, yet in saying that I will not judge any woman who decides for her own personal reasons to terminate a pregnancy. It is easy to say that there are other alternatives but until you have walked in the shoes of someone facing such a decision any discussion IMO is moot.

I have taken a few of the girls that I have had in my care for abortions and each time my heart broke for them and their decisions but I never once placed my views above theirs and offered anything other than support for the decision that they made.

I think I will get back to the three stooges here in Canada.

i know, it's damn tricky. but when it comes down to it, men have just as much right to see their child come into the world as the mother does.

it's a tough one because with rights come responsibility and some of that just can't be placed with a man.

that's true, but again i think that in order to make it easier for legal puposes, it steps all over the good guys... or at least the people just trying to do what's right for them.

i see it everywhere: becasue of the assholes of the world, normal, decent people get stripped of their rights.

Could you please explain which responsibilites, that come with parental rights, those would be?

I would be devastated to learn of having lost a child to abortion without even being made aware of it's existance.

i am not speaking for lil here aqua, but i took it to mean prenatal responsibilities.

Insurers are for profit organizations. Full term pregnancies cost more than abortions, most of which are performed early in pregnancy. An early pregnancy abortion costs less than an advanced pregnancy abortion. As it is not in an insurer’s best interests to publicize information which may increase its operating costs, such publication does not occur.

In the U.S.:

Early pregnancy abortions can cost anywhere from $350 to $600. The cost for a late second trimester procedure can cost up to as much as $3,000.

The estimated cost of delivery alone is $6,000 – $8,000 for a normal pregnancy and the cost increases if it is a high risk pregnancy. Well Baby visits add to the cost

Ah, I think you are likely correct wyndhy. If such is the case I am inclined to agree with Lil. In my feeble mind I can think of no workable solution in allowing the father an option when it comes to an abortion. As it stands, abortion is legal, so the choice should be with the woman.

On the subject of RvW... My views mirror that of Rabbit and dicksbro.

I also agree with WI's statement above, and take it a step further in that I would feel the same if I were aware or not.

there isn't a workable solution. this is why i think it annoys me there need be any laws in the first place. whether it's legal or not, it's going to happen so let people work it out amongst themselves, for themselves and by themselves and govn't should stay the hell out of it...they should literally have no position.

i feel the same way about right to die

Is this to say you feel there should also be no laws in regards to robbery, assault, vehicle operation, etc? No laws, period?

of course not. i meant laws regarding abortion.

or anything else that has to do with a person's body and no-one elses. drugs, seatbelts, right to die, etc.