Pornography vs. Erotica vs. Art?

[dadaist]

Okay, where do you guys draw the lines?

As a few have guessed, I have an interest in art and art history, but more "from the sidelines" than anything else.

I can/do find the human body to be very artistic (I was a bit surprised to see Star Wars tattoo art show up in the official fan magazine, because I didn't think that would be something they'd cover, but they did).
Anyway I can find human nudes to be specifically artistic and/or stimulating sexually, and I think it depends on pose/subject.
Obviously, someone simply being nude and photographed, drawn etc. (to ME) is one thing, but adding certain poses, certain clothing or lack there of, or certain other objects (you KNOW what I'm talking about here) crosses the line, again, in my mind, from art into erotica, which I would say is art specifically designed to generate a sexual reaction.

And I'll go further to say that I see nothing wrong with this, I think those who do it and those who view it are just normal, sexual human beings.

Any other comments?

[!rebeccakohl!]

Cool thread, Dadaist.

I think people put too much emphasis on the difference between "erotica" and "pornography". I personally use the terms interchangeably. I think there are obvious stylistic differences between them (in the same way that there are stylistic differences between Realism & Fantasy) but I don't think that one is better than the other or that porn is worthless and less important than "serious" "high brow" Art just 'cause its main purpose is to encourage a physical / emotional reaction rather than an intellectual one.

I think that "erotic" and "pornographic" are completely subjective terms. Personally, I think they're both positive words, while some people think "erotica" is positive and "pornography" is negative.

I'm interested in the areas where Porn and Art ("low brow" and "high brow" culture) meet, which is why I'm fascinated by the eroticism of Surrealist artists & writers and also Annie Sprinkle's move from being a hardcore pornstar & prostitute into a performance artist.

becky
x

[dadaist]

Hey it was your thread idea. I just thought I could get the conversation going. ;)

I just wonder how hard it would be to study sex as art since it's so hard to take seriously ;)

[Loulabelle]

To be quite honest: I don't care.

That's not to say I don't care about art, but wouldn't you say that feeling the need to draw boxes around things and say that 'This is art' while 'This is not' negates the whole point of art? Particularly in the more contemporary senses of the word.

The idea that somehow, certain erotic images are too high brow to be used the way porn is, is preposterous. There was a time when the camera did not exist, so all pornography would take the form of what would now be considered 'art' just because it was drawn by hand.

I think that sex is art to those who are doing it. It's about creating a moment of great beauty and atmosphere......but I think that you may be losing sight of the bigger picture Dadaist. Art is not there to be studied, dissected into pieces and 'understood'. It is there to be enjoyed as a whole by the 'viewer' (and I use that term loosely) so that s/he may gain a perspective on the feelings of another (the 'artist'). I don't think there can be any doubt that an observer watching two people in the act of love, can fail not to be emotionally moved by what they are viewing. Likewise, sex without an audience can be considered as two artists creating something for the enjoyment and satisfaction of themselves and for their partner.

As for taking it seriously........at its most profound sex is an expression of love, trust and commitment between two people and at its most basic it is the continuation of the species........I'm not sure you can say that either of these things are not serious. Just because something can aslo be pleasurable, does not mean it is not serious. If sex per se were not serious, then rape wouldn't be such an issue, would it?

I'm sure I won't be the only Pixie around here to take exception to that last comment Dadaist. My advice: tread carefully.

[!rebeccakohl!]

I go along with the early Dadaists (Zurich, 1916-ish) who wanted to destroy "Art" with a capital "A". They saw it as an elitist label created by the bourgeois to keep everyday people out. (The most famous examples of how they tried to do this are: Marcel Duchamp exhibiting a public urinal at an art gallery, or scribbling a moustache on the Mona Lisa with the subtitle "She Has A Hot Arse".)

I think the purpose of art, music, literature, film, dancing & performance (whether erotic or not) is to express ideas and feelings about what it is to be you living in the world today (whether "today" is prehistoric cave-painting times, or the modern industrial world). It's not particularly useful dividing things into boxes and saying "this is valid because it's intellectual but this isn't 'cause it comes from the heart or the groin rather than the head".

This is why I find it interesting when people break down the barriers between what is supposedly "high art" and what is supposedly "low art".

I think the Dadaists would've wholeheartedly approved of Annie Sprinkle's 'Public Cervix Anouncement', where she encouraged members of the audience to look at her cervix through a speculum.

THAT's absolute realism. All the artifice of respectability and traditional bougeois morality have been stripped away in that one performance.

I find that "erotica" is sensual and silky and gives me sweet dark fantasies to masturbate to under the comfort of darkness (it's an escapist pleasure like watching a romantic comedy with a box of chocolates and a bottle of wine) but I'm fascinated by the direct no-bullshit cut-to-the-chase realism of hardcore uncensored "pornography".

We are most true to our primitive animalistic selves when we are eating or fucking. We all like to eat and we all like to fuck but some people are afraid, because of our repressive history, to admit this to others, or even to themselves. They're the ones who want to ban pornography, keep the "great unwashed" working classes from the art galleries, look down their noses and feel superior cause they understand "Art".

These are the people who most need to be sat down between Annie Sprinkle's parted thighs with a flash-light to study her beautiful pussy spread open with a speculum.

"Cunt" is what the snooty classes are most afraid of. But Cunt is more important, more creative and more beautiful than "Art".

:) Ok. Time for breakfast, I think.

[dadaist]

Originally posted by Loulabelle

I think that sex is art to those who are doing it. It's about creating a moment of great beauty and atmosphere......but I think that you may be losing sight of the bigger picture Dadaist. Art is not there to be studied, dissected into pieces and 'understood'. It is there to be enjoyed as a whole by the 'viewer' (and I use that term loosely) so that s/he may gain a perspective on the feelings of another (the 'artist').

[snip]

I'm sure I won't be the only Pixie around here to take exception to that last comment Dadaist. My advice: tread carefully.

Once again we see the problem with posting text only and trying to use just smilies to inject a little humor into a bit of text. I wasn't being for a moment serious about a study, for artistic reasons or any other. I'm only trying to point out the blurs that exist between "popular" connotations of certain terms, and personal connotations of the same terms. Anything at all in life, be it sex or art or anything else, is as serious or as fun as any one person makes it out to be.
My only purposes in starting this thread were a) the topic came up in another thread and I thought the subject should stand alone on its own and b) stimulate conversation about the aforementioned connotations, whether personal or societal. I'm sorry you misinterpreted an attempt at a little levity.

[Loulabelle]

Dadaist

Once again, to be honest (and it's the only way I can be I'm afraid) I think your comment is perhaps more of a statement about how you feel about sex than you realise. I understand about humour (trust me on this one, I'm dating FussyPucker! Lol) but I have to say that for me, it would never have occurred to me to say, even jokingly, that sex is hard to take seriously. The reason for this is that (as I said before) it IS serious. You obviously don't feel that way and I was trying to give you another perspective. Especially as while sex not may be a particularly serious thing for you, it is certainly likely to be for the women you encounter in your sexual life.

Likewise it would never have occurred to me to think of art as something to be 'studied'. It's just not how I consider art and to me, the idea that it is something to study, just perpetuates art's 'high brow' image we both appear to agree is distasteful.

Whether your comment was meant to stimulate a response like mine, or not, it did and I felt strongly enough about it to comment. In my experience that's the way conversations and debates develop into something interesting and meaningful.


Lou x
(Degree in Educational Psychology - Fuck all qualifications in Art Appreciation! Lol)

[skipthisone]

Pornography vs. Erotica vs. Art?

I just let the staff decide...

if my pants become so tight i must take them off...Porn
if my pants just become noticable and i have to cover it...erotica
if i just look at it and nod and move on....art
if it is worthless and a 3 year old could make it...art funded by the NEA

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Loulabelle
(Degree in Educational Psychology - Fuck all qualifications in Art Appreciation! Lol)
Lou... Why not just fuck me instead?* ;) :p





























*The above comment was meant to be taken humorously and is not intended in any way to be interpreted as an attempt to have sexual relations with Loulabelle while she is significantly relationed with member Fussypucker and heretofore protecting myself, Aqua, from repurcussions stemming from any anger generated by Lilith, also known as Aqua's stalker.

[Loulabelle]

LMAO @ Skip and Aqua.


Oh and Aqua - c'mon admit it: you didn't read all of my long boring post, did you? You just scanned it for naughty words! Lol

[skipthisone]

LMAO @ Aqua....omg I think i will pee my pants

[Lilith]

skip...he likes that;)

[Aqua]

Damn straight! Bring it on ya hot fecking bastard!! lol

And yes Lou... I did read your whole posts... :D

[Lilith]

but did you stroke one off while reading them???:D

[Aqua]

<~~~~~~~~ What's it look like? :p ;)

[Lilith]

porn:D:D:p

[Aqua]

At least you didn't say a big mess to clean up. :p :p

[Lilith]

one can always hope;)

[skipthisone]

I thought it was art????

[Lilith]

It alll depends on whose lap it lands in :p

[dadaist]

Nah it'd be art if you shot cum on a canvas, framed it, and sold it to a gallery ;)

[skipthisone]

Originally posted by dadaist
Nah it'd be art if you shot cum on a canvas, framed it, and sold it to a gallery ;)

No...that would be something paid for by our tax dollars.

[dadaist]

You mean it isn't the same thing? :p

[skipthisone]

In this country, yes it is

[Loulabelle]

Aqua - You could shoot it in to a bottle, mail it and sell it to me............it wouldn't be art, but it would be damn good fun! Lol

[RandyGal]

I love to talk art and I'm just gonna say one thing artsy fartsy........


Mapplethorpe


:p

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Loulabelle
Aqua - You could shoot it in to a bottle, mail it and sell it to me............it wouldn't be art, but it would be damn good fun! Lol
Can I just mail that to the nicest fanny (and arse) in Cardiff? :p

[skipthisone]

What kind of postage do you use on something like that?

[Vigil]

The UK prude brigade have long held that

If it turns women on its erotic

If it turns men on its pornographic

(for anyone as sad as me, Erotic describes those things that relate to Eros - Love - and pornography is greek for the depiction of prostitutes)

[Loulabelle]

Aqua - OMG I can't believe you remembered that!!!!!!!! Yeah, but remember I no longer live in Cardiff........ :(

[!rebeccakohl!]

Originally posted by Vigil
The UK prude brigade have long held that

If it turns women on its erotic

If it turns men on its pornographic

I think there are differences in the way women & men use erotic materials. Men are very visual & like to look right at the action (maybe it's the hunter instinct - LOL) but women like to use their imaginations more. What people traditionally call "erotic" usually has an air of artistry, poetry, metaphor or storytelling about it & that encourages creative sensual fantasies.

Maybe I'm weird but I like them both. I don't think taste has to be an either or thing. I like watching deep European films with subtitles sometimes but other times I get just as much out of a throwaway Hollywood thriller.

I'm not sure whether the male & female differences in erotica / porn appreciation are something we're born with or something we're taught: "Good girls don't enjoy sex!"... "Only evil harridans and madwomen masturbate!"... "Burn the witch! Burn the witch!" LOL

I saw a programme where boffins in Scandinavia were sitting men & women down in front of hardcore porn vids & both sexes showed high levels of genital arousal.

[Aqua]

Originally posted by Loulabelle
Aqua - OMG I can't believe you remembered that!!!!!!!! Yeah, but remember I no longer live in Cardiff........ :(
I know, but I figure once you have such a title it just follows you... like when a U.S. president is done with his term, you are still supposed to call him Mr. President. :p ;)

And of course I remember that... when I first saw it I didn't think of it in the UK context so I immediately ASSumed he was referring to your arse... ;)

[skipthisone]

Saw a rerun of an old South Park last night...the Two Asses one, and all I could think was...this is Aqua's dreamworld....

[Aqua]

LMAO @ skip