Anthony,

It's clear that being new to the boards (oh and welcome to them by the way) that you don't yet know our members well.....you certainly don't know me well, or else you might have a different view of my earlier post.

I certainly don't have 'presumed biases' about what women want and my conclusions about Raven were not jumped to because of my own views and morality and if you read my post again, you'll see that I suggested that they MIGHT be playing a part in her behaviour.

As for antipathy to overly sexual women.....can I ask what an 'overly' sexual woman is? Because that implies you feel that a woman can be too sexual....and that's not something I believe in. Hell, I personally am about as sexual as a person can get, and have been since early childhood - I can't remember a time when sexual fantasy and masturbation did not feature in my life.

My concern, as I think I stated clearly enough the first time, is that in this particular case, perhaps Raven was not sleeping with these guys for the right reason. In my humble opinion, the fact that she felt the need to ask whether she was a 'slut' (using the term in a negative way) showed that she wasn't entirely comfortable with the way her sex life was panning out.

I am not a religious person (not even Christened) I don't consider myself to have higher than average 'morals', but I do have common sense (and a degree in Psychology as it happens) so those are my credentials for my theory that perhaps Raven was behaving a little naively. I sincerely hope she doesn't have reason to regret her actions and I sincerely hope she isn't kidding herself that she's in control, if she isn't, but let's face it, in the real world, not the idealistic one, these things do happen to 19 year olds.

__________________
"Time flies like an arrow -
Fruit flies like a banana"

M Y - N A U G H T Y - P I C T U R E S ! !

Thank you for the clarification, Loulabelle..I have a better understanding of where you're coming from, and it seems that were not so much in disagreement as I thought.

First off: I actually meant to say "overtly" (as in, upfront and open with her sexuality) rather than "overly"; my apologies for the typo. Actually, I don't really believe that there is any such thing as an "overly" sexual woman (or man), just some people who are more sexual than others.

Second; while I still personally disagree with your analysis a bit, I can see where you are coming from, and I understand your concerns about Raven much better. Yes, 19 year olds often can get in over their heads (both the ones above their shoulders and the ones between their legs) when it comes to sex, and yes indeed, they can be taken advantaged of by guys (and girls, too) who don't have their best interests at heart.

My only dissent is that, in my view, Raven seems to be pretty stable in her behaviors towards others. She does mention that she uses protection always, and that she is selective towards whom she chooses for her partners. To me, that doesn't sound like someone who is totally out of control and so obsessed with sleeping around; that sounds to me like simply someone who is experimenting with her basic desires for sexual variety. All of us have gone through that stage of our lives; if it happens that some encounters don't work out as well as others, than that's just the way of the world.

I respect your credentials very much, Loulabelle, and I didn't mean to degrade your concerns...but as a thinking sex radical, I tend to interpret Raven's response in a different form. You see it as her questioning her sexuality directly. I interpret it in another way; as part of the usual cultural and social pressures that are placed on women and men who act in opposition to the conventional plan of permanent compulsory monogamy and who insist on their right to determine their own sexuality for themselves. Perhaps Raven has internally bought into the belief that she is indeed a "bad" person (i.e. a "slut") for being so overtly sexual; and that reflects her questioning of her sanity. To me, though, that's simply a part of the experimentation of life in a predominately sex-negative society; and while you and I can giver her the best advice on what she needs to do, in the long run she has to make the ultimate decision about what to do with her life. I do understand that the real world isn't all beauty and perfection; but that's why we have to take things in the proper perspective and accept people's rights to make decisions on their own terms.

Also....I'm not sure what you mean about your concerns about Raven having sex for the "wrong reasons"; does that mean that people like her should only engage in sex for the "right" reasons?? And what exactly should those "right" reasons be particularly?? Deep emotional committment (read, true love)??? Financial or personal security??? I sincerely hope that you are not implying that young people who engage in sex outside of the paradigm of "long term relationships" should be automatically derided as being "out of control" and imature....for that would be as confining and nearly as reactionary as the conventional Christian Right viewpoint that any deviance from the Chosen Plan of marriage and motherhood for women is "un-Godly" and a cosmic threat. I accept and acknowledge your legitimate concern for her welfare; I just happen to think that alternative explanations can be found for her concerns.

So, really...we aren't that far apart as we thought, Loulabelle, and I do apologize sincerely for misinterpreting your original points. As you said, I am new to this forum, and as time goes on I will hopefully get to know and understand all of you a lot better. I just happen to have some strong opinions on these topics that I hope to bring into this forum..at least with a bit more tact then this.

And thanks for the welcome.



Anthony

Now...this goes directly to Raven:

If you are so willing, I would love to refer you to a book and a site that may be helpful in guiding you through your crisis of identity.

The first is the classic The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Endless Sexual Possibilities by Catherine Lizst and Dottie Easton. It is one of the most comprehensive studies on those who partake in alternative sexual lifestyles from two women who have the full experiences, the joys, the pain, and the pleasures of living a "slutty" life (and by "slut" they mean the positive definition that I stated in my original post), as well as dealing with the crises and the society which attempts to drag them down so much. Most progressive libraries should have that book available; if not, then a check at www.amazon.com would be worthwhile.

The other is a site I discovered called zenslut.com; it is run by a young woman who has lived through and resolved all of the issues of being a overtly sexual being; and has lived to accept herself through her unique philosophy.

I'm not trying to swing your opinion one way or another; just giving you some food for thought. Use it as you will...or not.

Whatever you do...all the best and Goddess' blessings to you.

Anthony

In my opinion and having the experience of chatting with Raven quite a few times, I think she is totally in control of her sex life.

She is though on her own and is sounding out people who she trusts about things,

Her parents disapprove of her and as Raven says they have no idea of what she really does. Certainly they would not be enlightened by the discussion that is going on here.

I know that this lovely young lady sufferred a lot when her long time boyfriend broke it off. We all can remember heartache and Raven unfotuneatly has had some of her own.

She is learning, testing, enjoying and allowing the true spirit in her to run free. She has used this forum as a balance to get others perspective. I think that is a healthy thing to do in an environment like Pixies where people care about others and their welfare.

I have been thinking about this thread for sometime, and I'd like to weigh in. Raven, you are a remarkably courageous, intelligent, and independent woman who is testing the limits of what is comfortable to you. This is visible everywhere in your postings, photos, poetry, and the other areas you have blessed us all by sharing. It has been my experience that when I test my limits, there are moments when I realize that the path I have just undertaken was not a good one for me, and this has often been very frightening.

I think Anthony's points are very well taken. In fact, I think we'd have to look pretty hard for a poster here at Pixies who is not acutely aware of the sexist double standard whereby a drunken callous frat boy with a number of sex partners is a virile stud and a woman or gay man who behaves similarly is some kind of abomination. Still, Loulabelle's wisdom carries the day, in my opinion. The same sexism and male privilege that underlies the double standard has also resulted in a sexual playing field that is far from level. College aged women often bear the most unhappy consequences of this in the form of date rape, STDs, and unwanted pregnancies (it's great to hear that you always play safe, by the way). Also, the fact that 19-20 year old women are often substantially more mature than their male counterparts means that these women often bear a disproportionate amount of the emotional cost of romantic and sexual unhappiness as well.

Speaking from my own experience (privileged male one though it is), I have discovered that, for me, there is such a thing as inappropriate sexual behavior. Although I have trained myself not to give a rat's ass about what parents and other authority figures think about my choice of family and family of choice, there are moments that a quiet, still voice inside me tells me that I have not been true to myself. When I use sex to medicate my feelings of unworthiness, fear, or anger, these feelings reappear with renewed intensity before the nerve endings even stop tingling. When I have important obligations to others, and I look at the clock and find that I have been surfing internet porn for five hours, I know I have substituted the artificial high of sexual arousal for the more satisfying pleasures of adult engagement with the world. And it is this responsible adult engagement which has been the foundation for an expression of my sexuality that has brought me much happiness.

As always, your presence here has stimulated much thought. Thanks for asking such a great question that we all need to think about, Raven.

I always found it strange that a sexually active male was a stud but an active female was a slut. I always preferred a woman who would admit she was horney and enjoyed it!

Maybe so, but that is not a universally accepted point of view, even though it is trending that way more than ever. I posted here earlier, failing to injest some levity into this post. Perhaps it is too serious for the humor. Nonetheless, I think the double standard is on its way out, at least in my country. Thankfully.

__________________
Lots of people talk and few of them know, soul of a woman was created below

I can't get through to her 'cause it doesn't permit
But I'm gonna give her everything I've got to give.

I hear your sweet voice calling
out my name
As I stare from a six foot cell
And from beyond I heard the words
Deceptively Yours

I laughed, Denny, I did!!!!!!


Anthony, I think your posts were very well thought out and I agree with you on many points.
Just as I think Loulabelle's posts were, and I also agree with many of her points.

I hate to paraphrase such long and detailed posts, but I think what Lou was getting at was that given Raven's recent history, she does APPEAR to have many insecurities and vulnerabilities. That's not to say she IS insecure or vulnerable, but it is a definite possibility and I think Loulabelle did the right thing by pointing it out. I would imagine very few Pixies knows Raven intimately enough to be so in tune with her emotional stability to make any judgement, but that's what we were asked to do.

I'm encouraged by the number of posts in this thread making the point that having a high libido and acting on it safely is a good thing - it is! PROVIDED, it doesn't put them in any substantial danger. It is a sad reality that these days there are too many predators willing to take advantage of a promiscuous, vulnerable and attractive young lady. Attractive and young Raven certainly is, but I don't know her well enough to judge if she's vulnerable or not and even if i did I wouldn't make that judgement publicly.

But it's a possibility and I hope Raven considers this advice and if she's confident she's in control, if she's sure she's taking every reasonable precaution, then that's great! I'll call her whatever she likes!

CasperTG
PS Welcome Anthony! Great to have you on board, constructive disagreement is a very good thing!

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